Welcome to the Neogaea Roleplay Community


    Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Share
    avatar
    ★Yuki~♪
    ★Ojouhimesama☆
    ★Ojouhimesama☆

    Posts : 899
    Join date : 2013-12-14
    Age : 26
    Location : Calgary

    Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by ★Yuki~♪ on Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:38 am

    So first things first I want to throw out there that I've always really been interested in a progression system. The original 1.0 system was designed around characters that would start the game powerful and end it even more powerful... being able to do as they please within their unique but small limitations. A lot of people have brought up to me that some characters are just plain overpowered or have too high stats, especially after what Spiked Edge experimented with Rauj and I feel that I need to address this in a way.

    The stats were initially supposed to be guidelines rather than strict limitations but one thing I've come to accept is that balancing the game is going to be hard without those guidelines having real meaning to them rather than just being a metaphor for how good or bad a character is. As they say no staircase is safe without the necessary rails to guide people.

    I want to think about a better approach to the stats, not really limiting the amount of stats characters start with, however make them a lot more meaningful. As such don't consider this a straight up nerf to all the characters as much as a setback in their personal timelines, yeah?

    The idea is this;
    Every character starts with 32 points, like usual. But instead of each skill point meaning 1 stat point they will be progressively more expensive, even during character creation.
    The numbers are so: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5 (Each rank)
    So as an example... Social 1 would cost 1 point...
    Social 4 would cost 4 points, whereas Social 5 would cost 6 points.
    Getting a 7 in a skill would mean using up 11 out of 32 points just to achieve that. With a 8 being 14 out of 32. You can see how that progresses from there.
    This way in order to make a character more rounded they will start out with lower stats overall, or a specialized character might have to give up entire stats just to upgrade their specialization.

    The keyword here is to start, as I plan on giving out stat points over the course of the game that players can use to upgrade their stats.
    Say... You have a 6 in social right? You would have to save up 3 statpoints to make it a 7. OR spend those stat points somewhere else like making a 0 stealth into a 3 stealth or splitting them even further like upgrading a 4 might into a 5 and using the remaining point to upgrade a 0 accuracy into a 1. Hopefully you get the idea?

    That being said a lot of people will think about how equipment or pre-determined skills will affect the characters yes?

    Equipment is very straight forward...
    Let's say you Have a might of 3 and you buy a Basic Sword+1
    you now have might 3+1
    Why not 4? Because you can be disarmed. In which case you loose that +1 benefit untill you have rearmed yourself.
    So how would this affect characters that start with a weapon or stat increase of sorts? Will they get free stats? The answer is no, but they can be upgraded over time. For example;
    Let's say you have this Fighter, right, and his Might is 3... He's got a fancy sword, maybe passed down through his family or a trophy of sorts. The character absolutely needs this in order for his theme ...of "this is a guy who has his own personal sword" ...to work so the simple answer is? Since he starts with it, it's just a +0. Well what if he gets disarmed? Well he is a fighter... He is menacing enough and able to fight with just his fists so the sword is just flavor text. If he has the sword or not his might will be 3 regardless because he's capable without it.
    To bring up another example; think about a stealth character.
    Airgetlam in the past had a stealth field that made her practically invisible, but it had it's drawbacks. The idea is that she still needs to be able to sneak and have the common sense not to stand in certain places at certain times or she'll be caught anyway. She can't just be bad at sneaking but decide since she can turn invisible shes automatically a god at stealth. Doesn't work that way. so instead it's all flavor text. Does she have her stealth camo thingi on? Yes? Still just a 3 in stealth. Is she sneaking manually? Still just a 3 in stealth.

    Now here is where the fun parts come in...

    One of the concepts i've always stayed true to in the game is that players who play smart should be rewarded as such. That's why you can't just kill an npc just by having purely better stats. You need to use your stats in a way that you set them up in a situation they can't escape from, be that beating them to a pulp or outsmarting them somehow.

    I want this to remain a truth in this system where players get rewarded for playing with the resources they have
    So lets say You have an archer fighting a swordsman without a shield. They are far away from each other.
    Yeah they both have 3 Might (3 Accuracy), for the sake of this example, but since the archer is at range and using a bow he might get +1.

    To use a more relate able example; When in 1.0 RD fought the wolves. He could have taken out one of the two wolves, but it would have put him in a bad spot. Instead he opted to skip on the checkmate in order to capitalize on it. He did a smart play and was rewarded for it by taking out both wolves eventually through this foresight and use of his characters stats, resources and personality. This would be the equivalent of getting like a +1 in speed or agility for thinking ahead of the enemy attacking him.

    The system isn't fully fleshed out yet but I think by more solidifying it, it will help characters be able to do a lot of things but make them more specialized whilst simultaneously addressing the idea of some characters starting out too strong and there being no proper progression system.
    A character with 32 points might only be able to get 4 in all stats making a fairly well rounded character but not an op character who has multiple 10 in some areas.
    The strongest I've been able to make a character is any variation on 6, 6, 5, 4, 3, 3, 0, 0, ending in 32 points by the original formula.
    Stat: 6, 6, 5, 4, 3, 3, 0, 0
    Cost: 8, 8, 6, 4, 3, 3, 0, 0 (32/32)


    Let me know what you think and what you disagree or agree with. Perhaps you can think of something that could be improved or something is unclear?
    I'm still trying to sort through this so any feedback is HIGHLY encouraged.
    avatar
    ★Yuki~♪
    ★Ojouhimesama☆
    ★Ojouhimesama☆

    Posts : 899
    Join date : 2013-12-14
    Age : 26
    Location : Calgary

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by ★Yuki~♪ on Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:33 am

    So I wanted to make a quick reply. Doc messaged me in person because he had some questions and this is basically a catch up so that you all can stay up to date. I'm sure he will make his own reply later on but I wanted to update this info in case you all have something to add.

    So Doc didnt seem to understand why I wanted a system like this. He was asking why I wouldn't just reduce the overall points to, say... 20 total. Instead of 32. And keep things the way they are going now...

    As I've said this is not a Nerf but more of a dynamic way of handling what a character can or can't do. I guess I wasn't very clear so I brought up this example;

    A character has 6 Social and a Guard expects a social of 7 or higher. Obviously things are not that linear but we will get to this later, alright? Hear me out;

    With keeping things the same way... You could just level up your social stat to 7 with 1 measly level. In fact with 3 more you could get a social of 10 which would give you a silver tongue like no other. It would completely eliminate the point of doing any form of investigation or discussion or heavens forbid use other players skills.

    Doc said... well you could simply pull someone with a social stat of 7 aside and they can handle the situation and while, yes this is true, it's not a permanent solution for the situation. Compared to being able to just level up once and immediately getting the same benefit, albeit permanently. So now the need for this other person is gone. That character, socially, is no better than the guy who previously had a 6.

    Likewise, let's say you play smart. You should be rewarded right?
    Lets say you gossip in an Inn, and you find out the Guard in question got drunk one night and gambled his wifes wedding ring away. Now you have some leverage against him, and if you bring it up to him he should care more, right? Yeah! Go you, you've successfully gotten yourself a +1 in social for this one interaction so your 6(+1) is plenty enough to keep going past the guard. Or... you value your time more than your money and buy a pretty scarf that makes you look slightly fancier. Before you seemed like a nice guy but you weren't really eye catching but now... well now things are a bit different so maybe this guy will pay more attention and you might be able to swoon him over with your fancy attire. Sure, not the best way of handling it, but you thought of something resourceful and you spent some money to have your way.
    But wait, why go through that trouble? You could just level up your social stat. It only costs 1 point so... Why waste the resources? You could be skilled AND rich at the same time and put no effort into it. What's more you would not only never need new skills or equipment or information, but you wouldn't need other people either because you can do every skill just as well as them.

    With the system I have things are different... Are you going to spend those 3 points to get from 6-7 just to talk to this one guard? OR are you going to put these points into some other skills to further your character, and opt to just think a little smarter and find out some information (see; wedding ring scenario) to use as leverage. That seems a lot more worthwhile and rewarding now, right? Or... better yet. Why go through that trouble if yes indeed you have this party member with a 7 social here. HE can just talk and you can save your precious 3 points and perhaps in the future use them to get a 9 to a 10 and max out that skill you've been waiting to get for 5 levels.

    This is my argument for the matter and why I even suggested bringing up a stat point.

    There would never be a need to replace your weapons unless I went full jerk-mode and decided to constantly break your equipment to waste your money because buying this slightly sharper sword is no different than using your old rusty blade. They are just as effective. However in this case buying that +1 katana might replace that boring old blade you had before, instead of having to pay more skillpoints to get benefits like that through your base stats.

    If someone steals your sword from your camp while you sleep out in the woods it will really hurt if it gives you a +1, whereas if it's just some dinky sword that is just as good as every other sword it won't really matter unless I force it to matter by making it some outrageously important object.

    Characters like Sharpe, or RD, Rauj for that matter, Atsuko and Reymondo, etc etc, would never have to get anything better so their resources and skills would keep piling up. Strong characters becoming even stronger, as supposed to a decent character putting in the effort to become a better character.

    One of Doc's major concerns though is that he felt it was far too complicated of a system, which I completely disagree with. But that's why I brought it up as a suggestion instead of just implementing it. What do you guys think? Is the system too complex? should we keep going the way we have been or would you rather have a real sense of progression and value?
    Or perhaps you have something to add or suggest a change to the system to make it easier to understand or better executed?

    Please leave me your input here so we can talk about this before I go over the currently existing characters.
    avatar
    TheWhiteRabbit
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2016-05-13

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by TheWhiteRabbit on Sun Jun 19, 2016 10:18 pm

    So for starters...you're over complicating this. Note I'm reading your two posts as i type to fully understand where you're coming from with the ideas. The point system is WAY to complex. Having higher numbers means it will cost more isn't something I want to have to keep checking back at to make sure my math is right. For starters as well you said you talked to Doc about reducing the stats to 20. Spoilers. That was actually me. He passed me the laptop because I was throwing out ideas faster than he could type. The thing with the guard and the seven social you say you can level up to have a silver tongue and get past everything without using other players. Yet I remember under the guise of Doc to use my character to talk because he has a high social which would be using other characters skills. In which you said something about a scarf that could give you plus 1 to social. Negating the use of another player. I know you want to get rid of the "loner" characters but not using another character and just upping your stats via equipment (which I've done many times in RPG's) is the way of a loner character not needing someone else to help them. I had also said to Doc about a main hub (this is when he took back the laptop) in which you can apply the stats in between the story. Not knowing what is coming you don't know what to level aside from what you originally wanted the character to go with. So if this +7 social guard is next up and you have 6 social and you didn't level that stat. Guess what. You ain't getting in unless you have someone in the party help. Or play off the stats of the character being used to get around that. A character might have a silver tongue but you can also put in personality of the NPC characters we talk to. To royal guards and citizens and maybe thieves (who would use that skill set to steal) they would buy that type of talk. Yet to a raider who would see them as ritzy or high class wouldn't buy it for one bit and would have a better time believing a rugged fighter from just comfort alone regardless of social. It's like in most RPGs where you have a super strong character whom only specializes in strength and psychical defense. Would you have him fight a group of mages who could flat out kill him because of low magic resistance? Thats where you switch up and use character strengths to your advantage depending on the situation. If we can have things that alter our stats via equipment I see no reason to be in a party. Or here is a nifty concept. Don't have a leveling system. More often than not (and I'm referring to Darksouls and other RPGs that let you control your leveling) I go for a quality build in my character. Meaning I try to make every stat at some point the same. Meaning if given the opportunity I wont actually NEED anyone through just time alone. I feel like we shouldn't do a leveling system and stick with out imaginations and what our stats say and character descriptions say. Maybe find items along the way to help us like you do in any RPG, but this is getting to complex for a forum roleplay.
    avatar
    ★Yuki~♪
    ★Ojouhimesama☆
    ★Ojouhimesama☆

    Posts : 899
    Join date : 2013-12-14
    Age : 26
    Location : Calgary

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by ★Yuki~♪ on Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:10 pm

    That's what I was worried about ultimately, so I'm glad to have your view on that. Though, I would have liked if you mentioned that you were taking over speaking for doc.

    Either way I see your point with the items. I just want there to be a reason for people to spend money instead of hoarding it and there is currently no such thing as a money sink except for food which is not exactly expensive. Well, either way I do see how being able to outright buy a stat point for gold, no matter how temporary it would be, would ruin the point just as much as leveling up a stat.

    The reason I suggested a progression system is to make the stat changes worth using and through that make the characters start out weaker and then become better at things over time.

    I would still like to hear other peoples views on this system, complex or not, to see what is something I can take a look at and what parts, if not all of it, I can just throw out the window and forget. Again thank you for your quick reply and insight, since this is what I ultimately was stuck on.

    In the end the stats are supposed to be a guideline as to what your character is good at and what isnt... so if there isn't a direct level of progression perhaps we can think of something else? Changing the scales from a 0-10 to a 0-5 or changing the stats from 32 to 16 isn't going to fix the problem, and it would take a lot to make sure that the characters are played the way they were designed. Obviously RD brought up this problem both now with rauj and in the past with other characters so I'm trying to figure out how to more regulate it without just simply changing the values as it will acomplish nothing. (Imo a character who has 4/5 is just as good as a character who has 8/10, right?)

    Perhaps that could fall into the strengths and weaknesses (not the personality traits but for skills)
    Say have something like...
    Strengths:
    Good at Stealth
    Decent at Social

    Weaknesses:
    Bad at Might
    Awful at Arcana

    That would generalize it a bit more, and regardless if the character progresses or not the "stats" or "skills" (whichever) would stay the same since they increase over time. That way someone could be say... Adept in Arcana, but that applies wether he is throwing a fireball or learning how to summon a meteor or whatever... for the sake of an extreme example.
    avatar
    Dr.Atrium
    The Good Doctor
    The Good Doctor

    Posts : 471
    Join date : 2013-12-15
    Age : 27
    Location : USA

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by Dr.Atrium on Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:29 am

    I will post my thoughts on this a bit later, I do want to clear something up. Shino, you were talking to me for most of the conversation, however things needed to be said quickly because I needed to go to work to Rabbit was typing while I was telling him my thoughts.


    _________________
    Raymondo, Demon Hunter
    Arcana - Arcana: 8 |Speed: 7 |Agility: 5, Might: 5
    00   ,25    , 00   
    Inventory
    Lantern, Scythe, Protraction Apache Revolver, Branded summoning pentagram, Colette's AQL Code (#1209), Kaavi's AQL Code(#1811), A plain alloy box with one quartz crystal that Kaavi was testing, Rey's own AQL (#3356), Spirit Lens


    "Revenge is an act of passion; Vengeance of justice. Injuries are revenged; Crimes are avenged."
    "I do not live in hope. I work to return it."
    avatar
    TheWhiteRabbit
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2016-05-13

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by TheWhiteRabbit on Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:16 pm

    Shino I'm not saying to put the cap at 5. I mean that starting characters max in a stat should be 5. We will say hypothetically you want all stats in the end to cap at 15. A starting character with 9 in a stat is kinda bullshit. This is why for a starting character your max with all stats should end with 5 in the beginning. The max you can use being 20. Its literally the thing you were saying so people have less starting by using more numbers to go up once its just simpler. Yous said a basic NPC would have 0-3 in most stats usually. So I figured that having a little above thats starting would make sense. Each character thats here is unique in their own way and in most cases (via stats) are better than normal people in their respective fields. This way in the beginning we could take out/ deal with basic threats and problems, but it can leave a massive space for improvement later down the road via upgrading the fields we want our characters to specialize in. If we decide to do something like that. I like the concept. Its just. Math.
    avatar
    DelaKayte
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 274
    Join date : 2014-11-09

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by DelaKayte on Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:21 pm

    Just my 2 coppers: I'm of the mind the math isn't that big of a deal. It will only need to be done once at character generation and occasionally when leveling. I would be willing to help people with the initial numbers, and also, once a leveling system is in place, it would be as simple as "so how many points to I need to save up to gain [insert next personal goal here]?" Again, that's something I don't mind helping people track.
    avatar
    TheWhiteRabbit
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2016-05-13

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by TheWhiteRabbit on Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:53 pm

    It wont need to be tracked if it was just simpler. We could even have a hub of sorts between adventures to level before the next part of the story that makes the upgrade permanent so you couldn't go back and level to change the outcome of the next part by a simple level tweak.
    avatar
    Spiked Edge
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 178
    Join date : 2014-08-07
    Age : 27

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by Spiked Edge on Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:23 pm

    Yo.

    Kept ya waiting huh?

    Sorry bout the long wait, I've been reading this bit by bit and like i said in the other topic, every time i wanted to sit down and say type it out, I've been either getting distracted or its just too darn late.

    But i'm here now, get yer popcorn ready.

    First things first, Rauj is in fact a balanced character (imo, we'll discuss that further in another place, at another time), the experiment there was to see how far we could take things like accessories and abilities. The answer is too damn far. I'll get into that in a moment though, this conversation will eventually roll back into it.

    I have no real problem with the stats becoming progressively more expensive, there's really only one problem there and its the same as the rabbit said; I can see it becoming a loner situation.

    I think the equipment thing may need more exploration. I can see where you're going with it and i don't mind too terribly, but it definitely needs more fleshing out. I was under the impression that equipment, abilities, etc, were represented for the most part by the stats, but as i said my little experiment dashed through that idea; i feel as though the main problem is how the abilities and equipment can cover weaknesses so easily; they need to be looked at more critically so as to make sure power-play doesn't occur. Realistically the way the system is now, any given weakness can be covered merely by slapping on a few abilities and special equips. That's my problem right there.

    As for stat boosts for certain actions in certain situations? Nah not a fan; it does indeed become a numbers game, if i was looking to play D&D i would've done so. Storytelling is what i'm here for.

    Personally i feel as though 1) the cap for starting chars should indeed be lower, like 20-25; and 2) Implement your earlier stat system in a way, but narrow it down a bit, have it so that a character who is arcana has an easier time lvling magic or something like that. The class they're aligned with, allows them to level the related stats easier. Needs more fleshing out though.

    The Hub idea i don't particularly care for, one way or another.


    _________________
    The true start of your life is the point in which you set a goal.
    The next step is to figure out why you've set this goal and what led you there.
    Your past is an important part of your future. ~Spiked Edge


    Inventory:


    Currency:
    $$$$$$
    avatar
    Spiked Edge
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 178
    Join date : 2014-08-07
    Age : 27

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by Spiked Edge on Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:32 pm

    OPG had this to say on said topic.

    "Okay so, basic idea is: everyone starts at 3 in every stat. Someone with a single class gets 2 points to spend in stats meant for that class. Dual classes get 1 point for each class stat. At max rank everyone stops at 6, except for their class stats, which max to 10 for single class characters, and 9 for dual class characters. Shino would just have to figure out what stats go to what class, which is easy enough."

    Worked that out whilst handling business upon the porcelain throne fyi.

    Also don't expect this shit to happen too often. Next time i'm dragging his ass back to either say it himself, or someone else can deliver. 'I can't be arsed' is what we're gonna go with.


    _________________
    The true start of your life is the point in which you set a goal.
    The next step is to figure out why you've set this goal and what led you there.
    Your past is an important part of your future. ~Spiked Edge


    Inventory:


    Currency:
    $$$$$$
    avatar
    ★Yuki~♪
    ★Ojouhimesama☆
    ★Ojouhimesama☆

    Posts : 899
    Join date : 2013-12-14
    Age : 26
    Location : Calgary

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by ★Yuki~♪ on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:49 pm

    That's actually a neat suggestion, thanks opg. It kind of combines both concepts together very nicely, so I want to look into that further. I also agree with what you had to say in your previous post.

    Im thinking for items... just straight up basic equipement to start?
    What im saying is... forget items giving obvious bonuses. It can cause just as much problems as an over complicated leveling system. I've always believed in playing the game as naturally as possible without having to throw in a bunch of numbers. Instead im thinking what if everyone starts out with basic equipment, that is... no fancy swords that do funky things, but instead a normal sword that does normal things. That also means no fancy soul consuming demon destroying scythes... yet!

    I'm thinking perhaps these can be enhanced or upgraded, or alternatives acquired later through actual in game means that give them a real sense of value, instead of starting off with strong equipment from the get-go.
    avatar
    TheWhiteRabbit
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2016-05-13

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by TheWhiteRabbit on Sat Jun 25, 2016 3:01 am

    Isn't the scythe in Doc's character lore part of him? Like its on his person. I don't see an issue with having decent weapons starting. We are suppose to be better than most people. I think we should be equipped for the task. Maybe not have it be as strong but it shouldn't be taken away. His lore would need to be changed up. TBH I don't see a reason to need any of this. We aren't playing an rpg. It's a fantasy story forum role play. We don't have to have all of this in place or at least not now. I'd like to start this sometime soon hopefully.
    avatar
    DelaKayte
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 274
    Join date : 2014-11-09

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by DelaKayte on Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:16 am

    It seems like RD finally "worded" the thing that everyone else has been trying to "concept". Yes these are verbs. If we want to focus on storytelling, and not numbers, then do that. 

    I -really- like OPGs idea, though I would cap dual class characters at 8, not 9. That's partially because it's directly in the middle of 6 and 10 and makes my brain feel better about it. Also having a 1 point penalty, but access to multiple 9s doesn't seem all that bad a drawback so dual classing would be the go-to, where by capping at 8, then even with specialists, there can be specialists at 9 and specialists at 10 allowing for a power dynamic within that class.

    Yuki, as for "making money matter" and these equipment issues. I have a somewhat radical idea... get rid of it (Money I mean). It's an extra bit of tracking, that as you've pointed out, becomes unnecessary.* If we're mercenaries, then that's the story we're telling, the monetary rewards aren't the important part, the story is.

    *If you feel like you absolutely need some kind of monetary guidance system, maybe consider a "wealth" stat, similar to the "resources" background in Whitewolf games, but even that becomes moot if the rich people gear out the poor ones.

    In this case, gear is flavor text and attributes become the only defining thing that actually matters. Combined with OPGs idea of classes, and a smaller pool of starting stat points, giving even 1 point as a reward for a completed quest becomes a big deal.

    This is followed with the suggestion of removing the minor BS side quests that were really only there to create a money flow. Give us the option of 2-3 major quests so that we can have a choice in the game flow, but in the end streamlining the quests will actually let you tell the Epic Story™ from the GM side, without getting bogged down with figuring out how to give us the equipment we need, the money to get it, and nitpicky stuff like how much lunch costs. This will also discourage people running off to do side quests by themselves just so they can have some cash.

    All of this sums up with: 

    If storytelling is the Overall Goal Of The Group™ then a player should tell the story of their character. Power-play is not storytelling. Therefore, power-play should not be a player's goal. That is something that should be addressed with a player, not a locking down of the system. Make it the players' responsibility to control their powergaming. Truth is, I don't care if someone plays a freaking god as long as they're respectful about making sure others get to shine.


    Last edited by DelaKayte on Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:28 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Typos and spelling mistakes)
    avatar
    Spiked Edge
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 178
    Join date : 2014-08-07
    Age : 27

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by Spiked Edge on Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:29 am

    Not gonna work. For two reasons actually. Firstly is, as explicitly stated, lore items. We could reel it in a back, maybe make some of their abilities innate ones that have yet to be tapped into or the character in question isn't sure how to activate but has on occasion, but a lore item will always be special in one way or another. In that character's case its a scythe passed down through the family line, mayhaps its tarnished a bit over time and its effects are weaker and need to be refreshed but regardless its got abilities a normal weapon doesn't possess that allow the character to do what he does/has a hand in the character's lore due to its unique abilities. Still, this doesn't mean it has the ability to cut through space-time itself or just drops some kind of earth-shattering de-buff on whatever it comes into contact with.

    Which brings me to the second reason, magic/innate abilities. As per usual, such things have no real scale or limit and end up being wildly op compared to 'normal' people or things. For example we have Rauj's totem. Its merely a large item that he doesn't actually use physically in combat (for the most part), but it's abilities boost his own to absurdity within a given area (it'll be dialed back, there's a reason he isn't in "Player-Characters" yet), But there's a reason he carries it around beyond 'i stole it' or 'its useful' its tied to his backstory. For a lesser example we have Atsuko's magic spear; can a magic spear 'break' via non-magical means, and if it can, couldn't she just conjure it back up, good as new? Added it can be enhanced with magic to take on elements... 'Normal' weapons can't do any of those things. Both are parts of the character's skill-sets and/or abilities and set the characters apart from your everyday joe, messing with them too much messes with the creator's image for their character, might even cause them to majorly rethink their character from the ground up.

    And that's just weapons, we'd have to toss accessories and/or clothing in there as well... Yet again some of which is important to each character, and boosts their overall ability in one way or another while still retaining an important tie to the character's lore.

    Like i said earlier, these items and abilities DO need more scrutiny, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of them completely, people should be able to create such mystic items and abilities, but imo they need to be given a once-over before they're just simply allowed.

    The carrot-muncher has a point though, this is getting a bit lengthy and it doesn't all need to be in place right this moment, as i stated earlier, your overall is fine for the most part, we can work out the rest of the kinks while the game is in-progress. Its important to try and get a good grasp on the general rules but if we take too long, interest will be lost. That doesn't mean i'm saying drop it for now though, but if we're gonna get this show on the road we need to strike the rest of the 'important subjects to discuss' off the checklist, amirite?

    To that end, are we going to discuss and expand a bit on OPG's 'toilet epiphany' or just go with it as is?

    EDIT: (Dela's post popped up while i was typing my response)
    DelaKayte wrote:

    In this case, gear is flavor text and attributes become the only defining thing that actually matters. Combined with OPGs idea of classes, and a smaller pool of starting stat points, giving even 1 point as a reward for a completed quest becomes a big deal.

    This is followed with the suggestion of removing the minor BS side quests that were really only there to create a money flow. Give us the option of 2-3 major quests so that we can have a choice in the game flow, but in the end streamlining the quests will actually let you tell the Epic Story™ from the GM side, without getting bogged down with figuring out how to give us the equipment we need, the money to get it, and nitpicky stuff like how much lunch costs. This will also discourage people running off to do side quests by themselves just so they can have some cash.

    All of this sums up with: 

    If storytelling is the Overall Goal Of The Group™ then a player should tell the story of their character. Power-play is not storytelling. Therefore, power-play should not be a player's goal. That is something that should be addressed with a player, not a locking down of the system. Make it the players' responsibility to control their powergaming. Truth is, I don't care if someone plays a freaking god as long as they're respectful about making sure others get to shine.

    I agree in all honesty. Bounties and such are a cool idea and if they're side story related to the main story then i can see them being a thing, like doing bounty A leads to another option in the main story-line or something like that, but i'm not so sure money should be such a big deal. Like Dela said, it basically gets rid of your ''lets split up gang" problem right there.

    I bite my lip at the last part. She's right of course, but with powerplay being such a problem in most stories i've read i'll admit i'm harder on it than most. I feel like the very presence of a 'god' character forces others light's to grow dim. But we've already addressed it so there's not much more to say there.


    _________________
    The true start of your life is the point in which you set a goal.
    The next step is to figure out why you've set this goal and what led you there.
    Your past is an important part of your future. ~Spiked Edge


    Inventory:


    Currency:
    $$$$$$
    avatar
    DelaKayte
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 274
    Join date : 2014-11-09

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by DelaKayte on Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:44 pm

    Spiked Edge wrote:... I feel like the very presence of a 'god' character forces others light's to grow dim... 
     

    I think that is a key to my own way of thinking that was wrong. We're trying to tell a story where we -all- have fun. If a character's very presence makes it where RD (or anyone else) doesn't have fun, then I don't want to play that character, or at least not the parts of it that threaten RD's fun.

    Flip side of that, I really think people should be allowed to actually play said character before someone starts judging whether they can have fun with it or not. And I'm not talking about waiting till we play to say things you already didn't like, I'm talking about waiting to even judge if you like or don't like something till you see it in action.

    I really really don't want this to become about my characters again, but they're the only examples that I have direct references for on the boards somewhere: there was a lot of objection to what they "could possibly do" but just about everything brought up was something that my immediate answer was "but I wouldn't do that, that would be a shitty way to play" followed very shortly by "The way the character thinks isn't like that". 

    Neither of these statements can be shown as "stats". There's no "Player respect" stat, or "don't be a showboat" stat. Fear of powergaming is very rampant here, and from what I understand, with good reason. 

    So. Everyone repeat after me:

    I solemnly swear, with hand on heart, and stick a needle in my eye, and pinky promise, and any other grade school method that will convince you I'm not lying, that I will never intentionally powergame. Furthermore, I will respect and assess when someone thinks I did by accident, and revoke or adjust when needed. 

    (That probably reads as a little snarky, but I don't mean it that way at all, I just don't know any other way to word what I'm trying to concept.)

    Also, if you think I'm powergaming, or even if you just feel like I'm stealing the show too much, just tell me, I'll stop. It's that simple. If I wanted to write a story where I was the star, I'd write a novel and get paid for it, not RP on a forum for free.

    As an addendum: When a player is accused of something and truly believes they're not wrong, Yuki as GM would have the final call, but I know even she is afraid of accidentally showing favoritism. I suggest that Yuki, Doc, and RD, who seem to be the ones with the strongest votes anyway, become a tribunal. 

    With 3 of you there will never be a hung jury, and I trust all 3 of you to be quite fair with the game, and with each other. Should it be Doc, or RD's character in question, they should nominate a stand in for the tribunal. The 4 people in question (tribunal plus player) hash it out, make a decision, and move on, no questions, and no hard feelings afterwards, from anyone. The tribunal made their choice, and that's the end of it.
    avatar
    TheWhiteRabbit
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2016-05-13

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by TheWhiteRabbit on Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:10 pm

    Dela... that whole post is loaded -.- and I'm telling myself to not do this but my fingers wont stop typing.

    For starters your character could literally do everything without the help from anyone. That being said it was altered (or something) where you can't summon your weapon or armor in the same post (turn). Meaning the only thing we would have to do is buy you time. You want some time to get ready for the fight? Hell we can buy you all the time you need. My guy is tanky (I will be re-doing my stats to fit this. I want to take some from might and switch it around.) RD's is fast. Doc's is pasty. Producer....doesn't seem to be here. Anyway though the time could be bought. So someone whom is damn near untouchable (in some situations) to prep and we basically have the battle won. Which isn't very fun. Meaning you wont be playing that character right? There is no "threat of powerplay" the only character that didn't really make sense (because of the magic thing) was you. RD just tweaked the character to be a dick. Doc's scythe (because I looked at his story) doesn't even have effects. Hell my guy is missing an eye and can't see from the left side of his body over. How can I powerplay? Not saying you said he could. Thats a legit question. Nor would I. When it comes to multiplayer RPGs I usually take a support/ healer role mainly because I don't trust anyone else to do it. So I can't power play. The isn't a "what you could possibly do" here. We based ideas off of the concept you came up with. Everything fit in the ramifications of what you made. We don't need to make this promise thing or any of that crap. Just get the main character syndrome out of your head (thats a general. Not just you.) stop and think if what you're doing would be un-fun for the people and maybe mix it up a bit when in a fight. Hell mess up on something. This goes for everyone. Make it interesting. Don't just go in and drop the enemy. Work together. We don't need this tribunal thing. This is the point of these discussions. So we ALL can agree or at least understand what all of us are getting at so we can START THE DAMN STORY PLEASE!!!!! Ps RD carrot muncher is our word. I'm very offended with your racial slang.
    avatar
    Dr.Atrium
    The Good Doctor
    The Good Doctor

    Posts : 471
    Join date : 2013-12-15
    Age : 27
    Location : USA

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by Dr.Atrium on Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:33 pm

    Shino wrote:That also means no fancy soul consuming demon destroying scythes...
    Where did this come from? One moment *goes back and rereads Reymondo's backstory and load-out* Yeah, no where is it said that the scythe could do that...in fact rereading, I failed to even mention the enchantment that is on it. The only enchantment is has, is one that allows the blade to cut and harm demons and spirits. The scythe still needs to be sharpened and it can be damaged. Not to sound rude, but did anyone read the backstory?

    Rabbit wrote:Isn't the scythe in Doc's character lore part of him?
    RD wrote:as explicitly stated, lore items.
    Thank you! Rey needs the scythe to fight demons. Normal weapons will not harm a demon or an angry spirit. And on top of that, the scythe was is fathers.

    Dela wrote:Yuki, as for "making money matter" and these equipment issues. I have a somewhat radical idea... get rid of it (Money I mean)
    No...This can not work. This is still suppose to be a believable world. We still need money to buy items and meals. It just isn't realistic to have everything for free.

    Dela wrote:This is followed with the suggestion of removing the minor BS side quests
    First off, "BS"? kinda rude don't you think? Second, I enjoyed the side quests in the other rp because they were connected to the main story. It was a fun little way for Shino to tell us to look around and try and notice things.

    Rabbit just showed me this and start at 6:20. He is talking about characters. Please, everyone watch this! I know he is talking about D&D but it really does fit in to what we are talking about.


    Here is the link in case you cant see the video here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdC_uHqXQzs

    For Rey. The man SUCKS at talking to people. He thinks he is better then you. So his Social is zero. Because he cannot be able to crate his own magic he has a magic rooster to make fire for him. Due to this choice, there is no way he is going to be able to sneak anywhere. He can be sneaking around then the rooster lets out a load cry because its an animal. So his Stealth is zero.

    It would be cool if everyone could post some of there flaws here. It would let me know that people watched the video and it will also help Shino out in knowing the characters and help in writing the story.

    Rabbit wrote: I'd like to start this sometime soon hopefully.
    Me too. Do you guys realize that we have been just talking about starting for over a month now? I think if we had just started when everyone had their characters made, things would of been better. we would of seen the "over-powered" characters in action and see if they truly were over-powered. I'm not going to lie, I would really like to start this soon.


    _________________
    Raymondo, Demon Hunter
    Arcana - Arcana: 8 |Speed: 7 |Agility: 5, Might: 5
    00   ,25    , 00   
    Inventory
    Lantern, Scythe, Protraction Apache Revolver, Branded summoning pentagram, Colette's AQL Code (#1209), Kaavi's AQL Code(#1811), A plain alloy box with one quartz crystal that Kaavi was testing, Rey's own AQL (#3356), Spirit Lens


    "Revenge is an act of passion; Vengeance of justice. Injuries are revenged; Crimes are avenged."
    "I do not live in hope. I work to return it."
    avatar
    ★Yuki~♪
    ★Ojouhimesama☆
    ★Ojouhimesama☆

    Posts : 899
    Join date : 2013-12-14
    Age : 26
    Location : Calgary

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by ★Yuki~♪ on Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:16 am

    The problem is that I strongly feel like if there aren't more tight systems in place no one can be blamed for powerplaying. I've seen it in the previous games far too many times where a character was just able to do something completely unrealistic but because it worked within the rules I had established at the time it worked out fine.

    As for the scythe comment; It wasn't that literal... I kind of would have thought you understood that I'm not going to make up random stuff, and it was just an overblown exaggeration of a concept relating to an example that exists in the game currently.

    I suppose the system doesn't need to be changed if I can just rely on everyone to play fairly but the fact of the matter is if the game allows you to be op or go off and do things on your own why wouldn't you? It's not technically against the rules. What's moreso, I know for a fact that you will eventually get bored with the skills and traits your characters will have. It only took a month of playing before people on the old game started creating alternate characters or wanting to change their existing characters or add something to the universe because the fact of the matter was that you just get bored playing the exact same character with no progression and no new toys to play with and to say otherwise is just plain untrue.


    EDIT: Also Roleplay is just a shortening of Roleplaying Game. You know... RPG. It's the same thing and this is a game. It's not a writing collaboration where authors come together and write a book together. It's a game in which you have choices to make and things to do. You're playing it, not writing it. The writing is just part of what makes the game run.
    avatar
    DelaKayte
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 274
    Join date : 2014-11-09

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by DelaKayte on Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:25 am

    First off, no I don't think "BS" was rude. I wasn't talking about the cool ones that tied in, I was talking about the ones entirely there for a bit of cash, with possibly one minor clue thrown in just to make it tie in some, but not such a major clue that if no-one did the quest it wouldn't be horrible if it was missing. But enough about how my wording offends people. I've admitted that I suck at it, and said that I don't know any other way to say what I'm trying to say.

    I'm not responding to your "could possibly do" post Rabbit.

    I will however answer Doc's "what are your flaws" question.

    Atsuko SUCKS at social. She has a 2 in the stat because of the tattoo (which will probably change), otherwise it would be a 1. She literally just came down from the north, I plan to have her speak broken "local language" and be very matter of fact and tactless. Partially because I can't personally think any other way, and partially because I want it to be clear that she really is a barbarian. She's going to be pissing people off with phrases like "BS side quests" because that's how she sees things, and she's not used to a culture where you don't say exactly what you mean.

    She refuses to stealth. She is Warrior caste and Warriors don't skulk. That's what Assassins do. Warriors confront their foes head on, both in combat, and with words.

    She doesn't understand magic, at all. She has no desire to. That's what Shamans do. Warriors aren't Shamans. (We'll figure out the tattoo thing. She may just be tattooed to be tattooed and we can figure out another way to accomplish the things I want to do with her.) This means that when she comes up against a magical problem, she's going to attempt to physically break it, if that doesn't work (which it won't most of the time) she's going to step back, fold her arms, and ask that one of you "Shamans" make it go away.

    She refuses to use ranged weapons that aren't thrown. Again, that's what Assassins do. If her opponent can't see her, or can't reliably react to her attack, she feels like she will lose honor by using non-warrior methods.

    She is stubborn, and brutish, and super uneducated about the local lands and cultures, all of which are a detriment to her existence here. And she knows it, which makes her very reluctant to step to the front of any discussion. She needs companions, and knows that too.

    I would like to add what I want from the character and why I chose the tattoos I did:

    I want to be a Warrior. That means good in combat. Specifically I want to be agile and fast. Partially because of her training not using ranged weapons. She is trained to get to an enemy quickly and without getting hit.

    I want to be a challenger. The entire point of the social tattoo was to influence an enemy to accept a challenge. The way I wrote it, I realized it would also be useful in social situations as a supplement to someone with an actual social stat, but that was just a bonus. The goal is to be an off-tank. Pull one enemy aside, be tanky/damagy enough to take him out, and allow the group to handle the rest without having to worry about the annoying guy I'm beating on.

    I want to be mostly gearless, but still combat effective. She's travelling miles and miles on her feet. At most, she needs a provisions pack. Carrying around a bunch of armor and weapons wouldn't be practical.

    I want to have an experience of learning from the other characters. Some of her refusals and stubbornness may change over time, or may not. That is for the story to decide. The social specifically is her reason for travelling.

    I want something "cool" or "special" about her. (Hence the tattoos). A lot of what I want could be accomplished by playing a super martial artist, but I don't want to do that. In a group full of flashy characters and interesting backstories and abilities, I don't want my posts in combat to be "I punch him. I dodge."

    Any help filling those desires in a way that doesn't sound overpowered, or bend the rules and mechanics of the world, would be greatly appreciated.
    avatar
    Dr.Atrium
    The Good Doctor
    The Good Doctor

    Posts : 471
    Join date : 2013-12-15
    Age : 27
    Location : USA

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by Dr.Atrium on Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:46 am

    So I was talking to Shino and this is what she said.

    " i still dont know who all is linked together, i cant continue writing the story if I dont know who is paired up"

    So in interest on getting this started, this is who Rey knows and how.

    Shibari Kemuri: Rey was hired to go out and kill a man. After a long time of hunting, he found this man at his hideout. Little did Rey know, Shibari was also hired to kill the same man. The both walked in at the same time and saw each other. Thinking that Shibari was one of the man's hired goon, he set of to fight her. To Shibari, she thought that Rey was the man's bodygaurd and so she set off to fight him. The two fought for a bit, being a pretty even fight. Shibari asked why Rey was protecting the man. Rey started laughing, realizing that she was also after the man. Rey explained that he has been hired to kill the man and wanting to be a gentleman, he let her have the kill. They then parted ways.

    Ruhiel Cromar Isengrant: This is a man that he has heard alot about. Though Rey has yet to see him face to face, he has always wanted to. The man must have some great stories and surely would make a great partner in killing his families killers.

    Atsuko Samhradháin: Not really sure how or when Rey could of met her...I am open to ideas but I think he wouldn't know her from the start.

    Rauj: I really dont think that Rey would know him. Though an idea I had was that Rauj could know Rey by having found his old home before he and his mother left and looted it. Rauj would of come across pictures and would know Rey by sight.


    _________________
    Raymondo, Demon Hunter
    Arcana - Arcana: 8 |Speed: 7 |Agility: 5, Might: 5
    00   ,25    , 00   
    Inventory
    Lantern, Scythe, Protraction Apache Revolver, Branded summoning pentagram, Colette's AQL Code (#1209), Kaavi's AQL Code(#1811), A plain alloy box with one quartz crystal that Kaavi was testing, Rey's own AQL (#3356), Spirit Lens


    "Revenge is an act of passion; Vengeance of justice. Injuries are revenged; Crimes are avenged."
    "I do not live in hope. I work to return it."
    avatar
    DelaKayte
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 274
    Join date : 2014-11-09

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by DelaKayte on Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:58 am

    As I've said multiple times before. Atsuko could literally have met anyone and started following them around like a stray puppy. 

    Of course it would be better if said person was welcoming of a companion. That part seems to be the hard part to find. The most likely candidate would have been OPGs character, but he seems to have bailed. Any social heavy character could potentially be willing to take in an obviously out of place foreigner.
    avatar
    Dr.Atrium
    The Good Doctor
    The Good Doctor

    Posts : 471
    Join date : 2013-12-15
    Age : 27
    Location : USA

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by Dr.Atrium on Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:03 am

    I am more then ok with that. If Rey sees how good she is in a fight and is willing to help him, he would welcome her with open arms.

    I also want to say that I have desided to make is that Rey can't summon the demon, though he is working on it. He is already tied to her and he has the brand on his hand, he just doesn't know how to summon her


    _________________
    Raymondo, Demon Hunter
    Arcana - Arcana: 8 |Speed: 7 |Agility: 5, Might: 5
    00   ,25    , 00   
    Inventory
    Lantern, Scythe, Protraction Apache Revolver, Branded summoning pentagram, Colette's AQL Code (#1209), Kaavi's AQL Code(#1811), A plain alloy box with one quartz crystal that Kaavi was testing, Rey's own AQL (#3356), Spirit Lens


    "Revenge is an act of passion; Vengeance of justice. Injuries are revenged; Crimes are avenged."
    "I do not live in hope. I work to return it."
    avatar
    TheWhiteRabbit
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2016-05-13

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by TheWhiteRabbit on Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:44 am

    I have a social heavy character. Why not me? We literally have the same amount.
    avatar
    TheWhiteRabbit
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2016-05-13

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by TheWhiteRabbit on Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:47 am

    I would actually welcome you as my partner Adela in the start till we met everyone. We have contrasting personalities. Would make an interesting time.
    avatar
    TheWhiteRabbit
    Player
    Player

    Posts : 99
    Join date : 2016-05-13

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by TheWhiteRabbit on Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:48 am

    Sry for the name. I'm typing on my phone and auto correct snuck in.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Concept Discussion...Stat system? What do you think?

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:48 pm